Great ideas, thanks. There exists a certain element that needs violence to express inner rage. Humans need to find outlets for individual rage, but covering up injustices only means the explosion will be that much worse when it erupts. I often wonder if the Las Vegas music festival killer was suicidal, but decided to take down some of his enemies with him. (Noise & increased traffic congestion are frustrating & can drive some to violence.)
As always, I enjoyed this essay immensely. Small point though, as a neuropsychologist, I can say with some level of comfort that Jaynes' theory is nonsense. (n.b. This should not be taken as an endorsement of the existence of gods.)
Thanks, Frank, for the kind words and for subscribing!
Your "NB" made me LOL. I think even Jaynes wasn't entirely convinced he was right, but either way, his may be the most intellectually fun nonsense I've come across.
Another Sunday masterpiece Greg! It’s been a long time since reading the Iliad, but found your interpretation amusing and thought provoking! As for that extra hour(hmm), well spent!
Saber rattling, wars over land birthrights, religions, their gods and greed are likely factors built into man’s, or perhaps societal DNA? Loved this one!!
A stunningly fine piece, this morning Greg. While I may question some of your facts, that's a minor point. There's bound to be factual disagreement when it comes to Homeric issues. The major point here is your willingness to go roaming through the ancient past for leveraged understanding of our fractious contemporary world. Good for you for that. For me at my age where I need a cane to safely take just another step or two to keep my balance, seeking stabilizing understanding to endure all that's happening to us today, is equivalent to searching the past to stay balanced. Yet today we find our our colleges and universities deserting the humanities and the liberal arts. You set a fine example here with today's step, as you variously do in many another piece in what you write. Keep it up, please.
Thanks so much, Paul. I'm always happy when you like these pieces. I'm sure you know the facts better than I do here, as I can't claim to be remotely an expert on Homer. (I much prefer The Odyssey to The Iliad). My knowledge of history begins, more or less, with Caesar Augustus becoming Emperor. Everything before that is hazy.
I hope the liberal arts will make a comeback, and I suspect they will. The store of human knowledge and wisdom has value!
I wonder about ancestral, transgenerational, PTSD. It seems like until we heal these ancestral strands of our consciousness we will continue with our wars, terrorist attacks, mass murder events, white supremacy, genocide, and misogyny. It's inherited trauma looking for relief.
Two comments: 1) It is ironic that war has been the muse of so many artistic masterminds and masterpieces, including the epic Iliad. I recall reading somewhere that the Greek tragedy was created at the request of war generals to inspire the empathy of soldiers who, having experienced the de-stressing catharsis these dramas fostered, would return to the battlefield fully invigorated. And 2) As to your pacifist friend’s appraisal about war, I must agree. Given the extinction of dinosaurs, perhaps our DNA mutated to formulate our species as our own natural predator. In this manner, homo sapiens “wisely” guarantees its cyclical near self-destruction so as to preserve and regenerate humankind’s natural habitat… I realize this is a morbid thought, but I cannot rationalize the rush to escalate nuclear proliferation any other way.
It IS ironic, but even now, I can feel the raw emotion in the rare times when it has appeared in my life: the admiration of valor, I guess you could call it. If that's true about the war generals, that's an ancient way of treating PTSD.
And yes, it's true that the planet can only sustain so much human life...feed it, clothe it, keep it warm in the winter, etc. The Black Death killed a third the population of Europe, but life became much, much better for everyone who survived. The pre-plague population was too great for the resources at the time, and there were frequent famines etc. War served that same function, historically, coldly. And wars are almost always started because of fear, misunderstanding, paranoia, insecurity, and the wrong people wearing the crowns.
Greg, good scribbling even though i never read Homer.
Of course its all "dicks."
I've even known women that yearned to have one.
AND
then humans have this thing about limpieza social.
But the god folks are really murderous.
AND previously i have posted here that for Putin and for some of his Mulitary personel its about Revenge, including against a number of Soviet politicians
Way back in the Dark Ages of the 1980s, I used to have a theory that the end of the military draft in the mid-70s actually CAUSED the excess of the 80s. Young people, including me, didn't even have the possibility of being consigned to the military and going off to some jungle half-way around the world to die before they turned 20, so all hell broke loose, and became the "Greed is good" era. That led to the grungy 90s, where everyone suddenly got an award for just showing up. There was no incentive to "do your best" anymore, all you had to do was APPEAR to be doing SOMETHING and it was rewarded. Then came 9/11, and the people who had been repressed and had not advanced in the 80s and 90s were more than willing to go off to war for "USA! USA! USA!"
I can still remember in early 2002, after we'd invaded Iraq, supported by a lie, saying as much to one of my co-workers, and he looked at me and said, "Oh, you're one of THOSE. All I know is that we should support the troops and the president." He was about ten years younger than me, but still too old to join the military, but there he was, no matter the reasons put forth, "supporting the troops AND the president," and by extension, the illegal war.
Your friend is 100% correct, war and warmongering IS in our DNA. It has to be, considering the lip service we pay to "peace" and yet go off and fight for some land or some religion every chance we get. We're coming up on the Christmas season, where LOADS of greeting cards express, "Peace on Earth," and here we are anyway. Is there any doubt that we can't NOT have war? No, I don't think so. We just can't quit war.
The Israel/Hamas war has caused me to retract back into my bubble online. I'm sick to death of reading people 100000% on Israel's side no matter what they do and taking in no criticism of Bibi Trumpanyahu's war management skills as anything but antisemitism. It's futile to try to counter that bullshit, so I mostly stay out of discussions about it. But, again, it's just more war. Human beings are dying by the thousands, and no one seems to really care about that. Israel turned off the electricity, water, food and medical supplies delivery, and the internet in Gaza and no one much cares because it's "WAR." To me, this looks like if the Oath Keepers of Michigan chapter blew up the Capitol building, and the US Army went in and LEVELED all of Michigan to "GET" them. It is no wonder we have massive protests in Washington and worldwide in support of the Palestinian people. NOT Hamas, which is also a stupid argument you get if you express support for Palestine -- "Oh! You support the terrorists!"
OK, done ranting because I don't talk about this very much anymore. I just watch and learn. In the meantime, instead of the Iliad, because GAH!, I'm almost finished with "Romney: A Reckoning," which is a far better book than I ever thought it would be. I mean, it's about Mitt Romney, for gods' sake! If nothing else, at least the man has his integrity to fall back on. Surprised? Yeah, me too. I don't agree with him on much, but at least he can put up a good argument for his position without once invoking Trump's wishes. In this political climate, THAT'S integrity.
Thanks, Steve. A lot to chew on here, and a lot of great insights as usual.
I agree that the lifting of the draft -- and, for that matter, the decade and a half of relative peace -- had a major impact on young people at the time. We might even argue that "greed is good" and the big swinging dick world of corporate finance was war on a different battlefield.
Peace on earth? Haven't you heard, Steve, there's a WAR ON CHRISTMAS!!!!
The problem..."problem" isn't the right word...challenge?...of the Palestine protests is that there IS a significant pro-Hamas element overlapping it. The movement has been co-opted, as these big protests so often are, by shady fuckers trying to exploit our basic human decency. Israel will continue to lose the information war until Bibi steps down...and I think this is what Biden and Blinken are trying to make happen. This is horrible, and it's a learning experience for all of us, myself included. I believe that most people, on both sides, want peace, a lasting peace Unfortunately the extremists are running things. Again: Bibi's gotta step down.
I didn't agree with Mitt on much, but I never questioned his integrity. I wish he'd been wrong less...
Fascinating and brilliantly written Sunday morning read Greg. Thank you
Thanks so much, Helen!
Brilliant, Greg. Thank you.
And "The Iliad begins with the first-ever literary dick-measuring contest" -Hahahaaaahaaha !!
Thanks, William. We try to work in the jokes, just to make sure everyone's paying attention. ; )
Haahhaaahhaa! I bet the Greeks would be Republicans today, disobeying their own rules, and (sin!) cheating with horses!
Very funny, William! You’re probably right, except they are cheating with elephants 😉
Great ideas, thanks. There exists a certain element that needs violence to express inner rage. Humans need to find outlets for individual rage, but covering up injustices only means the explosion will be that much worse when it erupts. I often wonder if the Las Vegas music festival killer was suicidal, but decided to take down some of his enemies with him. (Noise & increased traffic congestion are frustrating & can drive some to violence.)
Thank you. I think tapping into these repressed emotions explains the uptick in radicalization we're seeing. That and the internet, of course.
Booya! Great read. Billserle.com.
Thanks, Bill!
I so enjoy your writings. Thank you for this read. Fascinating.
Thanks so much, Linda!
As always, I enjoyed this essay immensely. Small point though, as a neuropsychologist, I can say with some level of comfort that Jaynes' theory is nonsense. (n.b. This should not be taken as an endorsement of the existence of gods.)
Thanks, Frank, for the kind words and for subscribing!
Your "NB" made me LOL. I think even Jaynes wasn't entirely convinced he was right, but either way, his may be the most intellectually fun nonsense I've come across.
Thank you. I thought the same thing about Jaynes' theory (although I am not a neuropsychologist). I do, however, endorse the existence of gods.
On the subject of gods, I am agnostic.
If I get what you're saying, I'd better enjoy some football this afternoon while I still can.
I hope you caught the early game from Germany!
Another Sunday masterpiece Greg! It’s been a long time since reading the Iliad, but found your interpretation amusing and thought provoking! As for that extra hour(hmm), well spent!
Saber rattling, wars over land birthrights, religions, their gods and greed are likely factors built into man’s, or perhaps societal DNA? Loved this one!!
Thanks, Patrick. I was grateful for the extra hour. I needed it this morning!
Thank you Greg for another deep read and dive into something I know nothing about or very little. I spent my extra hour reading this.
Thank you, Helen!
A stunningly fine piece, this morning Greg. While I may question some of your facts, that's a minor point. There's bound to be factual disagreement when it comes to Homeric issues. The major point here is your willingness to go roaming through the ancient past for leveraged understanding of our fractious contemporary world. Good for you for that. For me at my age where I need a cane to safely take just another step or two to keep my balance, seeking stabilizing understanding to endure all that's happening to us today, is equivalent to searching the past to stay balanced. Yet today we find our our colleges and universities deserting the humanities and the liberal arts. You set a fine example here with today's step, as you variously do in many another piece in what you write. Keep it up, please.
Thanks so much, Paul. I'm always happy when you like these pieces. I'm sure you know the facts better than I do here, as I can't claim to be remotely an expert on Homer. (I much prefer The Odyssey to The Iliad). My knowledge of history begins, more or less, with Caesar Augustus becoming Emperor. Everything before that is hazy.
I hope the liberal arts will make a comeback, and I suspect they will. The store of human knowledge and wisdom has value!
Gender equality is key to development, and there is growing evidence of its critical role in building and maintaining peace ☮️ #UNWomen
Yes, Kirsten, good point. Also, the golden age of every civilization always happens when the diversity is at its zenith.
I wonder about ancestral, transgenerational, PTSD. It seems like until we heal these ancestral strands of our consciousness we will continue with our wars, terrorist attacks, mass murder events, white supremacy, genocide, and misogyny. It's inherited trauma looking for relief.
I wonder, too. Ronlyn talked about this idea on he podcast a month or two ago...that we inherit trauma. How do we escape that? I wish I knew.
So what remains constant isn’t peace but chaos, which roams from the domestic realm to the battlefield and back again…to eternity.
Well put. Civilization is merely a fancy word for the collective attempt to impose order on chaos.
Fascinating reading, Greg! Bravo 👏
Two comments: 1) It is ironic that war has been the muse of so many artistic masterminds and masterpieces, including the epic Iliad. I recall reading somewhere that the Greek tragedy was created at the request of war generals to inspire the empathy of soldiers who, having experienced the de-stressing catharsis these dramas fostered, would return to the battlefield fully invigorated. And 2) As to your pacifist friend’s appraisal about war, I must agree. Given the extinction of dinosaurs, perhaps our DNA mutated to formulate our species as our own natural predator. In this manner, homo sapiens “wisely” guarantees its cyclical near self-destruction so as to preserve and regenerate humankind’s natural habitat… I realize this is a morbid thought, but I cannot rationalize the rush to escalate nuclear proliferation any other way.
Thanks, Rose.
It IS ironic, but even now, I can feel the raw emotion in the rare times when it has appeared in my life: the admiration of valor, I guess you could call it. If that's true about the war generals, that's an ancient way of treating PTSD.
And yes, it's true that the planet can only sustain so much human life...feed it, clothe it, keep it warm in the winter, etc. The Black Death killed a third the population of Europe, but life became much, much better for everyone who survived. The pre-plague population was too great for the resources at the time, and there were frequent famines etc. War served that same function, historically, coldly. And wars are almost always started because of fear, misunderstanding, paranoia, insecurity, and the wrong people wearing the crowns.
Greg, good scribbling even though i never read Homer.
Of course its all "dicks."
I've even known women that yearned to have one.
AND
then humans have this thing about limpieza social.
But the god folks are really murderous.
AND previously i have posted here that for Putin and for some of his Mulitary personel its about Revenge, including against a number of Soviet politicians
And of course the United States.
God bless Mother Russia
Patriarch krill
Should be KIRILL
Thanks, Cal.
Revenge is so 20th century...
Way back in the Dark Ages of the 1980s, I used to have a theory that the end of the military draft in the mid-70s actually CAUSED the excess of the 80s. Young people, including me, didn't even have the possibility of being consigned to the military and going off to some jungle half-way around the world to die before they turned 20, so all hell broke loose, and became the "Greed is good" era. That led to the grungy 90s, where everyone suddenly got an award for just showing up. There was no incentive to "do your best" anymore, all you had to do was APPEAR to be doing SOMETHING and it was rewarded. Then came 9/11, and the people who had been repressed and had not advanced in the 80s and 90s were more than willing to go off to war for "USA! USA! USA!"
I can still remember in early 2002, after we'd invaded Iraq, supported by a lie, saying as much to one of my co-workers, and he looked at me and said, "Oh, you're one of THOSE. All I know is that we should support the troops and the president." He was about ten years younger than me, but still too old to join the military, but there he was, no matter the reasons put forth, "supporting the troops AND the president," and by extension, the illegal war.
Your friend is 100% correct, war and warmongering IS in our DNA. It has to be, considering the lip service we pay to "peace" and yet go off and fight for some land or some religion every chance we get. We're coming up on the Christmas season, where LOADS of greeting cards express, "Peace on Earth," and here we are anyway. Is there any doubt that we can't NOT have war? No, I don't think so. We just can't quit war.
The Israel/Hamas war has caused me to retract back into my bubble online. I'm sick to death of reading people 100000% on Israel's side no matter what they do and taking in no criticism of Bibi Trumpanyahu's war management skills as anything but antisemitism. It's futile to try to counter that bullshit, so I mostly stay out of discussions about it. But, again, it's just more war. Human beings are dying by the thousands, and no one seems to really care about that. Israel turned off the electricity, water, food and medical supplies delivery, and the internet in Gaza and no one much cares because it's "WAR." To me, this looks like if the Oath Keepers of Michigan chapter blew up the Capitol building, and the US Army went in and LEVELED all of Michigan to "GET" them. It is no wonder we have massive protests in Washington and worldwide in support of the Palestinian people. NOT Hamas, which is also a stupid argument you get if you express support for Palestine -- "Oh! You support the terrorists!"
OK, done ranting because I don't talk about this very much anymore. I just watch and learn. In the meantime, instead of the Iliad, because GAH!, I'm almost finished with "Romney: A Reckoning," which is a far better book than I ever thought it would be. I mean, it's about Mitt Romney, for gods' sake! If nothing else, at least the man has his integrity to fall back on. Surprised? Yeah, me too. I don't agree with him on much, but at least he can put up a good argument for his position without once invoking Trump's wishes. In this political climate, THAT'S integrity.
Thanks, Steve. A lot to chew on here, and a lot of great insights as usual.
I agree that the lifting of the draft -- and, for that matter, the decade and a half of relative peace -- had a major impact on young people at the time. We might even argue that "greed is good" and the big swinging dick world of corporate finance was war on a different battlefield.
Peace on earth? Haven't you heard, Steve, there's a WAR ON CHRISTMAS!!!!
The problem..."problem" isn't the right word...challenge?...of the Palestine protests is that there IS a significant pro-Hamas element overlapping it. The movement has been co-opted, as these big protests so often are, by shady fuckers trying to exploit our basic human decency. Israel will continue to lose the information war until Bibi steps down...and I think this is what Biden and Blinken are trying to make happen. This is horrible, and it's a learning experience for all of us, myself included. I believe that most people, on both sides, want peace, a lasting peace Unfortunately the extremists are running things. Again: Bibi's gotta step down.
I didn't agree with Mitt on much, but I never questioned his integrity. I wish he'd been wrong less...